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Post by DanTheMan on Apr 15, 2009 1:11:49 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I never really understood the hatred for this movie. It kept to the story, it didn't really change the characters. Granted, the animation wasn't as good, but the magic of animation pretty much left Disney long before TLM II ever released.
So, please give your thoughts.
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Post by WickedElphie on Apr 15, 2009 2:49:40 GMT -5
Well my main problems with the movie are pretty much:
1) The main plot is very similar, only in reverse and kiddy-fied a bit.
2) It's Melody's story. I would have preffered something more focused on Ariel and Eric. Neither of them had near enough screentime and we didn't get see Eric interact with anyone but Ariel, and far too briefly with Melody.
3) Morgana is a weak-sauce villainess.
4) Ariel repeating her father's mistakes.
5) Most of the songs are not nearly as good.
6) Some of the animation was downright terrible. Like Ariel's huge neck in "For a Moment"
That said I don't hate it. I love Melody as a character if nothing else, and Tip and Dash are fun, as is Undertow. "For a Moment" while not "Part of Your World" by any means is a very sweet song. And Ariel and Eric's kiss in the water near the end is just lovely.
I just feel like they could have done better.
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Post by Coral on Apr 15, 2009 12:40:56 GMT -5
I don't particularly care for it, but I don't hate it either. Elphie laid it out very well. (you'll discover that we think scarily alike sometimes!)
I think Melody is a great character with lots of potential. She wasn't handled very well. I thought the whole premise was out of character for Ariel. I just don't see her making the same mistakes that her father made in forbidding the other world. Take extra precautions yes, but not outright forbid.
I do have a couple of moments in the movie that I just *love* and that's the reason I bought it. I love "For A Moment", crappy animation and all. I think it's a wonderful song and it captures the characters very well. I also love the moment during the party where Ariel steps outside by herself, takes her shoes off and steps into the edge of the surf. I have a couple of avatars that were made with those screen shots.
The animation was lousy though. It could have been better. Tip and Dash are ok. Could have been better with a little more thought.
I wasn't terribly fond of Morgana's motivation either. That needed some more thought.
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Post by DanTheMan on Apr 16, 2009 1:09:31 GMT -5
Well my main problems with the movie are pretty much: 1) The main plot is very similar, only in reverse and kiddy-fied a bit. 2) It's Melody's story. I would have preffered something more focused on Ariel and Eric. Neither of them had near enough screentime and we didn't get see Eric interact with anyone but Ariel, and far too briefly with Melody. 3) Morgana is a weak-sauce villainess. 4) Ariel repeating her father's mistakes. 5) Most of the songs are not nearly as good. 6) Some of the animation was downright terrible. Like Ariel's huge neck in "For a Moment" That said I don't hate it. I love Melody as a character if nothing else, and Tip and Dash are fun, as is Undertow. "For a Moment" while not "Part of Your World" by any means is a very sweet song. And Ariel and Eric's kiss in the water near the end is just lovely. I just feel like they could have done better. 1) I see it like that somewhat, but not that much, and you can pretty much ignore it. 2) Well, there was plenty of focus on Ariel, but it was more so to her being a mother. No offense, and I know everyone loves him, but Eric will always be a bit player when it comes to TLM. 3) Agree, but there have been worse villains. She wasn't that bad. 4) That was pretty much another point in the movie, and it shows Ariel is growing into a parent. 5) True, but I think it was more about the story, than the songs. Then again, the songs aren't my favorite part about TLM, so I didn't really mind. 6) I haven't seen it in it's original form for a while now, but I did see the newly released DVD again, and they did make the animation look much better. |
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Post by Coral on Apr 16, 2009 8:21:19 GMT -5
I still need to track it down on DVD. There are still copies out there to be bought. My Wal-Mart still has like 5 copies of TLM Platinum and it's been back in the vault for nearly 2 years!
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Post by DanTheMan on Apr 18, 2009 1:00:01 GMT -5
I still need to track it down on DVD. There are still copies out there to be bought. My Wal-Mart still has like 5 copies of TLM Platinum and it's been back in the vault for nearly 2 years! Well, it's not that hard to mess with the Disney vault, just knock the guard out, people have been doing that for years lol.. hence why it's not been working properly lol. j/k |
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Post by fathomsbelow on Apr 18, 2009 16:47:00 GMT -5
If I knew where the vault was, I'd do that to get Ariel's Beginning XD.
I didn't really like TLM2. I dunno, I just don't like Melody as much as Ariel. Maybe if they had made her older, less annoying, and given her a prettier voice I might have considered her a good character. She just wasn't that great of a character to me. I don't like the fact that it's all about her. I wanted it to be more about Ariel and Eric too.
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Post by Aquisha on Apr 18, 2009 19:45:13 GMT -5
I just was mad that they ruined Ariel's character by making her older, and then having her act just like her father. I really didn't need to see Ariel and Eric have a child. Melody's ok, and given her situation, I don't blame her for her actions, however, it was still annoying nonetheless. I think it would have been much more interesting to see Ariel adjusting to life on land, having Morgana have the Wicked Witch of the West, "Who killed my sister? Was it you?!?" thing going on, or anything just as long as Ariel's character was kept intact. By making her so much older and giving her a child, it just takes away the youthful vitality that was so charming about Ariel. A lot of what makes Ariel so relatable and likable is the fact that she's a young girl, trying to find her way in the world and forging her own path. Could we have continued with this premise? I think so. And as for Eric, I won't lie, I would have loved to have seen just a little more of his interactions with Ariel and what their relationship actually turned out to be. Because even though he is Ariel's love interest, there's not really a whole lot that tells about how they work together like we get to see with Aladdin and Jasmine or Belle and the Beast. And I'm not saying that needed to be the plot of the whole movie, but it would have been nice if it had gotten a bit more screen time. I can always fill in the blanks with fanfiction  |
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Post by DanTheMan on Apr 18, 2009 23:32:36 GMT -5
I agree fathomsbelow, about the age. It would've made more sense if Melody was the same age as Ariel was in TLM.
Well, that's part of one of the lessons in TLM, by having her act like Trition, Ariel grew to understand what it's like to be a parent.
People would then just say that they're copying a storyline if that happened lol.. IMO, that would've been worse, at least TLM II was keeping the actual story flowing.
Honestly, I don't see how Ariels' character changed. True, she did become more like a parent, and did become a little strict in the middle of the movie (didn't last long), however, her charm, and everything about her was still there, just a little more mature. I don't see what's wrong with advancing a character.
See the thing is though, most people don't really care about that, and it wasn't even harped on in the first movie. The difference between Aladdin and Jasmine and Ariel and Eric, is that J & A actually had seperate storylines going on, and their own characters. Only Ariel had that, and Eric really didn't have anything. I mean, other than being Ariels' love interest, he really is nothing. No character, no storyline, nothing.
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Post by WickedElphie on Apr 19, 2009 1:38:29 GMT -5
Well, that's part of one of the lessons in TLM, by having her act like Trition, Ariel grew to understand what it's like to be a parent. Honestly, I don't see how Ariels' character changed. True, she did become more like a parent, and did become a little strict in the middle of the movie (didn't last long), however, her charm, and everything about her was still there, just a little more mature. I don't see what's wrong with advancing a character. It's not so much Ariel advancing as a character as Ariel acting in ways that I perceive as Out Of Character (OOC). To this day I have a hard time buying the "let's lie to our daughter for most of her formative years and build a really big wall. To keep out the OCEAN." plan as coming form an organic place. It seems like Ariel made those decisions because the plot said she had too. To me it reeks of lazy writing. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotPlotAlso, I feel like just because Ariel became a parent, that didn;t mean she had to become a reflection of her parent. There were a couple Mom!Ariel moments I really liked, like the "fish out of water comment" and stroking Melody's hair, but the stuff with her being super-strict, or really clueless just didn't ring true for me. Eric really didn't have anything. I mean, other than being Ariels' love interest, he really is nothing. No character, no storyline, nothing. To me this is an over-simplification. Every secondary character in the movie exists to further Ariel's story. You can't really separate their functions from their character/storyline. That's like saying "Well what's the point of Flounder, besides him being Ariel''s semi-cowardly friend." I mean, his life and motivations aren't given in minute detail either, but I think we can agree that he has a character, and that we'd like to have seen a little more of him in 2. |
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Post by fridamoonbeam on Apr 19, 2009 8:32:00 GMT -5
Well, that's part of one of the lessons in TLM, by having her act like Trition, Ariel grew to understand what it's like to be a parent. It's not so much Ariel advancing as a character as Ariel acting in ways that I perceive as Out Of Character (OOC). To this day I have a hard time buying the "let's lie to our daughter for most of her formative years and build a really big wall. To keep out the OCEAN." plan as coming form an organic place. It seems like Ariel made those decisions because the plot said she had too. To me it reeks of lazy writing. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotPlotAlso, I feel like just because Ariel became a parent, that didn;t mean she had to become a reflection of her parent. There were a couple Mom!Ariel moments I really liked, like the "fish out of water comment" and stroking Melody's hair, but the stuff with her being super-strict, or really clueless just didn't ring true for me. Eric really didn't have anything. I mean, other than being Ariels' love interest, he really is nothing. No character, no storyline, nothing. To me this is an over-simplification. Every secondary character in the movie exists to further Ariel's story. You can't really separate their functions from their character/storyline. That's like saying "Well what's the point of Flounder, besides him being Ariel''s semi-cowardly friend." I mean, his life and motivations aren't given in minute detail either, but I think we can agree that he has a character, and that we'd like to have seen a little more of him in 2. Wow... I agree with all of that! (I remember arguing you Dan on LAF about TLM2 XD ) But really, I didn't like TLM2 mostly since I found myself wanting to smack Ariel and Eric the whole time for being so stupid. Morgana's appearance was too stretched to work for me. Morgana's attack could have been handled WAY better. Triton could have taken care of her then and there with the trident. He had a lot of opportunities in that time. With the poor choices he made at that point, I would seriously doubt his abilities as a ruler. That scene just annoys me. If Ariel and Eric were truly concerned for her safety, they'd get her as FAR away from the castle as possible. Ariel and Eric were almost as stupid as Triton was, sadly. If they were so concerned about Melody's safety; then why did they not try and maybe hide her in the way the Stefan did with Aurora so Maleficent wouldn't find her? Morgana knew where she lived. It's just foolish to assume that she couldn't at some point turn herself into a human and disguise herself as a maid, sneak into the castle and take Melody. But if she's living as a peasant girl, she's not so eaasy to find. And hey, if they were going to rip off their old ideas, they could have Mel raised as a peasant while she'd just happen to run into Prince Omar of Agrabah  XD WHY not tell Melody about her mother's past? Wouldn't educating her help her understand the whys of everything. Instead they completely sheltered her and lied to her for twelve years of her life. Granted Eric saw it coming (kind of) , but it was still unjustified. I don't see them doing that for twelve years, it just didn't seem to be in either Ariel or Eric's character. I don't see why they would just tell her, "Hey there's a bad lady after you, please stay put kid." Poor Mel is mostly seen as a brat, but I think that TLM fans get TOO defensive of Ariel and are just unhappy that her child is angry with her. I thought Mel had every right to be mad. If that was me, I really would have a hard time trusting anything they said. And yes, I agree about the chaacters. Everyone was there and served a purpose since it was Ariel's story. And not every character needs to be flamboyant or over-the-top. It makes things less cartoony for me, and it doesn't mean they don't have layers. Subtly is a beautiful art. |
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Post by Aquisha on Apr 19, 2009 11:56:02 GMT -5
For me, just Ariel acting so overbearing and close-minded is just terribly upsetting to the way I'd seen her growing up. So that's why her actions in TLM 2 are just off for me.
But Elphie brought up a good point; if Ariel and Melody could have acted as a team to achieve a goal, and if Melody was a little younger than 12, like between 8-10, then there would have been a connection of emotion and feeling rather than the similarity of loving the sea. I just don't like the idea of Ariel and her daughter being at odds in the same manner that Ariel and her father were. That's just really unfortunate to me.
And I don't think Eric's a complete non-entity in the movie. The creators themselves have said that he had more of a "character" than any other prince that had come before. I'm not saying he's as fleshed out as the Beast or Aladdin, but I am saying that they could have filled in a few of the blanks if they'd chosen to go with a storyline in TLM 2 without Ariel/Eric progeny and just about Ariel acclimation to the human world (which I think would have been far more interesting).
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Post by Coral on Apr 19, 2009 12:01:52 GMT -5
Dan, just keep in mind that you're surrounded by a bunch of Eric fan-girls. None of us will ever be really happy with anything that ignores our favorite prince.
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Post by DanTheMan on Apr 19, 2009 15:57:24 GMT -5
Or, it could've been just her reacting without thinking. Some people do that. After all, she almost immediately regretted it. You mistunderstood me, I never said that he had no point at all, all I said was, basically what you just said, he is just a secondary character, or in how I said it, a 'bit player.' Nothing of him, was given in any sort of detail, except that he was a prince. His character, story, nothing was given out at all. We did? I never really agrued on LAF, except for that Jazzy thread lol.. Oh well, bring it on!! I would have to agrue that the Beast had more of a character, and Aladdin, to a certain extent. **Holds Sword** I'm prepared, I dare to be different  |
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Post by Coral on Apr 19, 2009 16:01:53 GMT -5
When Eric was created, Beast and Aladdin didn't exist yet. So when the movie came out in 1989, he was the most developed prince in Disney history. I think they sort of saw with Eric that the prince needs to be more fully developed so they paid a lot more attention to Beast and Aladdin. If The Little Mermaid hadn't been such a huge hit for Disney, Beast and Aladdin wouldn't exist at all.
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Post by DanTheMan on Apr 19, 2009 16:08:47 GMT -5
My mistake, I thought BATB had come out before TLM. Must've slipped my mind. Well, now I'll have to do some research ;D
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Post by fridamoonbeam on Apr 19, 2009 16:15:40 GMT -5
Lol. We didn't really argue Dan, we debated, like grown ups. LOL But be warned: I will march into battle with my tight navy pants and red sash. LOL |
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Post by fathomsbelow on Apr 19, 2009 17:13:27 GMT -5
XD.
I didn't like what they did to Ariel. Sure, it's nice that she's a parent, but I didn't like the whole "becoming her father" thing. I know that's the whole plot, but I didn't like it at all. And I guess Melody did have a point in running away because her parents were being idiots. But I would have started asking questions instead of running away. Her situation was a bit different from Ariel's so I don't really like what she did.
I would have rather seen Ariel adjusting to life on land and the whole Eric/Ariel relationship developing.
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Post by DanTheMan on Apr 20, 2009 14:04:03 GMT -5
Lol. We didn't really argue Dan, we debated, like grown ups. LOL But be warned: I will march into battle with my tight navy pants and red sash. LOL Honestly, I don't remember that either lol... And what would marching into battle looking like that do to me? While that's nice in theory, and it could've been done, it would've taken away from their main point in the movie, which is about Melody. Even if they did try to do something like that, it wouldn't be very long, and then people would still complain. |
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Post by fathomsbelow on May 18, 2009 20:17:56 GMT -5
I think that it could end up being longer depending on the screenplay and the plot. For example, I personally hated Morgana. I mean, she was just a horrible replacement for Ursula. And don't get me started on Undertow. He annoyed me. If they had done something preferably not involving Melody, they could have had Ursula return for revenge. Or, maybe they could have Ariel and Eric visit Atlantica and Ursula returns then. There's a world of possibilities..
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XD
