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Post by Zavi on Apr 26, 2011 8:06:45 GMT -5
I was tempted to post this in one of the character discussion threads, but this is a big topic and equally important for both characters. Feel free to move this but I felt like it needed its own thread.
Although this is barely mentioned in the film, the relationship between Triton and Ursula intrigues me so much, especially knowing they're siblings. I'd love to know more about how they interacted while they were younger or what events led up to the banishment. Thoughts?
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Post by Aquisha on May 1, 2011 10:10:31 GMT -5
*Taking a very deep breath* This is my probably long-winded and convoluted explanation of Triton and Ursula's relationship:
So I feel like as long as there have been merpeople, there have also been octopans (i.e. a human/cephalopod race that comes up in Heroes). They have always been at odds with the merpeople for who will be the ruling anthropomorphic race of the oceans. But too bad the merpeople have the trident which is like the electoral college of the ocean; whoever has it wins. But, again like American politics, the octopans think this is unfair and fight anyway. So, there's that theory.
So, Poseidon, Triton's father, comes up with an idea to stop the endless fighting: let's legitimize the octopans so they can be a part of the royal family, give them some power/representation and they'll stop fighting. So, Po-Po chooses from the octopan ruling class Ursula, recently orphaned by the loss of her father in another octo/mermen skirmish, making the choice doubly poignant. He adopts her as his and raises her alongside his son, Triton. The octopans agree to this because when Ursula is of age, she gets half the ocean which is fantastic! But, Ursula really loves her new father and brother (which the octopans didn't count on) and it looks like she won't attempt an overall siege of power like her people would want, but rather rule alongside her brother (insert octopan "boo").
So life for merpeople and octopans becomes peaceful and Triton and Ursula are basically like any other siblings, caring for each other and growing up together...until Ursula finds out the circumstances of her father's death which was seen by only one witness who the octopans sniff out and finally bring to her. Yeah, it was Po-Po who killed her father in battle, making her adoption just look like a very late and selfish apology of a guilty man. Ursula doesn't forget and turns to the octopan leaders who were never really happy with this little peace in the first place.
LONG story short, Ursula lays in wait until Poseidon's death, betrays her brother who is hurt beyond repair (I mean, she just forgets their childhood and turns on him...cold), and makes a coup. Of course, Triton is blindsided, it takes a second, but he gets his bearings, dethrones Ursula, and takes his place as king.
There's a lot of other stuff in there but that is, believe it or not, the short version (we didn't even talk about Ursula's magic). But yeah, that's Triton and Ursula's backstory according to Paige!
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Post by Zavi on May 2, 2011 8:36:55 GMT -5
That's so interesting, Paige! I never would've framed things that way. It makes me all that more interested in how King Triton and Ursula grew up together. My interpretation breaks the series canon a little but as much as I love my beloved TV show its canon was shaky anyway.  In my head King Triton and Ursula were blood-siblings and Ursula was once a mermaid, a la Vanessa with a different voice. And she was later cursed into her octopan form and grew to like it or gave herself the form for intimidation purposes. Someone on TVTropes apparently agrees with me. *Squee* tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/TheLittleMermaidSo Triton and Ursula grew up as blood relatives, sibling rivalry abound. Ursula has all of Ariel's ambitious traits turned up to eleven and with looser morals, so I can imagine there would be conflict between them and Ursula would feel entitled to or even robbed of certain rights/privileges/notoriety. I like thinking of Ursula as the younger/middle child (taking Morgana into account). In a small royal family she's basically forced to live in her brother's shadow. Ouch. Along the way she discovers her bloodlust for power (which, at a young age, might intrigue and scare her at the same time) and distances herself from her family. I like the idea of her having a turbulent relationship with her father to reinforce the Ariel's doppelganger theory. I blame Heart of Darkness for my shameless love of dopplegangers. It wouldn't be over the same issues, obviously, but familial conflicts have loads of possibilities. |
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Post by Coral on May 4, 2011 21:36:05 GMT -5
Wow. Both of those theories are quite good.
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Post by WickedElphie on May 5, 2011 12:05:01 GMT -5
I have a third possible theory. My theory is that Triton was Poseidon's son by his first wife and then he later remarried (possibly for political reasons), and wed an Octopan woman, who was Ursula (and Morgana)'s mother. Making Triton and her half-siblings.
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Post by Coral on May 5, 2011 18:19:26 GMT -5
Also a very interesting theory.
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Post by Aquisha on May 5, 2011 20:23:47 GMT -5
Mare, I really like that idea! I feel like she'd make the change herself; just her personality being so presentational and big I can see her embracing a totally unique and exotic form. Plus, lines like "...he and his flimsy fish-folk" make it seem like she has a feeling of superiority above merpeople that your theory totally explains.
Then Jess, your theory also makes a lot of sense. I agree that there's some kind of political reasoning behind Triton's father taking an octopan bride or orphan.
I do think that Ursula was always just a little darker than the people she was around. She had more of a cynical/vengeful side to her; like wanting the execute people rather than giving them trials. I feel like this was always off-putting to most people but maybe Triton would explain it away when he could.
I would love to talk to Ron and Jon about their initial ideas on how this whole sibling thing would work out!
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Post by Zavi on May 18, 2011 14:56:51 GMT -5
Oh yes. I assume they made the decision to keep the villain in the family just because it adds an extra layer of conflict. Pity it didn't pan out in the film though. But an hour-and-a-half can't accomplish every conflict you want to include. But that's what fanfic is for. But how they saw the logistics and Ursula and Triton's dynamic really interests me. They didn't interact all that much in the film and when they did, it was over Ariel's life.
But with any of those theories what were their childhoods like? Sibling rivalry or buddy-buddy until something important happened? Clearly Ursula has a world of resentment for her Triton but aside from the banishment we don't know what happened.
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Post by Coral on May 19, 2011 12:34:34 GMT -5
I can see it as sort-of friends on Triton's part and nothing but resentment on Ursula's part. Maybe she's the older sibling and a female can only take the throne if there's no male heir. Triton took what she thinks is rightfully hers.
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Post by Zavi on Jun 18, 2011 21:30:31 GMT -5
I could see that working too. Either way Witchy has a wallop of pent-up resentment for Triton. I usually think of her as the younger or middle child (with Morgana) as I know many people in that situation and the difficulties that come along with it. Being forced to live in a sibling's shadow and never quite being recognized for what you deserve. Ursula's selfish streak would only magnify that jealousy and resentment and propel her to what we see in the film.
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Post by faya27 on Sept 1, 2011 20:50:21 GMT -5
It would be cool if the film kept the idea of Ursula and Triton being siblings. It would make sense why Ursula believed that she deserved the throne (other than wanting to have power, of course!)
I did imagine what Triton and Ursula's relationship during their childhood. Perhaps they were good playmates or at least very close with each other until their dad decided that Triton would have the throne. I don't know if Ursula is the youngest or the oldest. If she was the oldest, she lost her throne to Triton because he is a boy and traditionally boys get thrones. Girls don't unless they're like Elizabeth I who didn't have brothers. If she was the youngest, she had trouble trying to shine; she was always stuck being in her brother's shadow because everybody paid more attention to him than her. Either way, she got jealous and when she got into black magic, Triton no longer cared about her and banished Ursula when she tried to overthrow him.
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Post by Zavi on Sept 23, 2011 7:45:30 GMT -5
I think for every villain there's a line between hurting and doing something dangerous/taboo to cope and letting those traits fester into something "evil" if that makes sense. Ursula's definitely crossed it. There could have been issues with the throne or even brother-sister things that just fell apart. But somewhere along the line her personality and her circumstances meshed into badness.
I'd like to think she got into magic in her early teens and at some point in her progression, she scared herself. She grows apart from her family because of this and thus begins the cycle of ostracization and resentment. If she ever had a good relationship with her brother, she certainly lost it.
And how does Triton feel about this? We don't quite know.
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Post by lovetodream on Jun 6, 2016 8:48:40 GMT -5
This is my perception of what could have happend. I would love to see a maleficent type situation created around Ursula. I'm very drawn to her.  - In the beginning, all species lived in harmony together. Merpeople and Octopans alike. Obviously there were many other creatures in the mix, but merpeople and Octopans were the ruling species. Ursula and Triton met when they were kids. Triton being Poseidon's first son (Ruler of Merpeople) and Ursula being shinowa's first daughter. (Ruler of the Octopans). Triton and Ursula were the first Royal children in the kingdom. Ursula began developing feelings for triton very early on, and enjoyed spending time with him. They shared many things with each other, both their inner secrets and feelings. They could relate to each other due to their Royal stance and future responsibilities. To them, it was a kingdom they both new one day they would help each other rule. However as time went on, Triton began spending a lot more time with someone else. Someone he started feeling very strongly about. A high priestess in the kingdom and a desired mermaid, Arial's mother. Triton and Arial's mother began developing a relationship quite quickly, and had the kingdoms full support. This was very upsetting for Ursula, as she had fallen very much in love with Triton. Triton still included Ursula in his life as much as possible, and Arial's mother was very kind to her. Within the kingdom there was a known rule. The first child of royal blood who declared their love and marriage for another, would be the ruling species to take the thrown to the kingdom. Triton and Ursula always talked about their shared Union of the kingdom when they were younger, but never truly understood what it all meant. Triton never felt feelings towards Ursula nor did he pick up on Ursula's feelings towards him. When Ursula learnt of his growing relationship with Arial's mother, she maintained her composure as much as possible even though seeing them together killed her inside. She still had hope for a future with Triton not even thinking about the rule, or what could actually happen if Triton married Arial's mother. She just wanted him to love her. The more Ursula tried to win Tritons affection, the more she could see him falling deeper in love with Arials mother. Ursula was always rather introverted, very creative, and had a passion for expression and fighting for creatures to have the right to be who or whatever they wish to be. It was around this time that Ursula began turning inwards and leaving the palace walls at night and mixing with creatures of a completely different nature. The eels were creatures who would swim in the darkest part's of the ocean. They were long and snake-like, with different ideals and understandings. Ursula's image began to change and so did her personality, and unlike the Merpeople, the Octopans were unknowingly gifted. Octopans had their own inner powers. Many Octopans lived their lives unaware of this fact, which kept much of their potential suppressed. It was the eels who told Ursula about what she was and what she could do. They began to teach her how to manage each power and when she should use them. They asked Ursula questions about the kingdom, and why she would ever want to rule something so controlled by rules and conformity. They encouraged Ursula instead, to teach and inspire her OWN kind and perhaps begin a new way of life. Ursula went back to the kingdom and began sharing her experiences with the octopans. She started teaching them magic and told them what her new ancient companies had taught her. Word spread around the kingdom fast, and soon enough Merpeople were gathering around the Octopans in AWE of what they could do. Triton and Arial's mother were in the process of preparing their marriage and taking the thrown. Poseidon (tritons father) become aware of what the Octopans had been dwelling in. Poseidon was quick to tell his son that the Octopans had become disruptive and corrupt by dark magic from out of the kingdoms quarters orchestrated by Ursula. Triton tried to challenge his father by convincing him that the Octopans new-found powers, would only make the kingdom stronger as a WHOLE. But Poseidon wouldn't have it, and viewed their power as a threat. He quickly reminded Triton that the only reason Merpeople were seen in a higher light, was because of their elegant, graceful and naturally regal appearance. Octopans with power could completely over-throw the Merpeople and Poseidon feared that. Poseidon banned all Merpeople from communicating with any Octopan who practiced "foreign acts". Shinowa (Ursula's mother) become infuriated that this rule was suddenly put into play without any consultation with the Octopan species. A large confrontation began between both colonies causing a massive divide between the two species. Triton felt that he had no choice but to cut all communication off from Ursula (but at this point Ursula no longer cared. As she had found a much bigger purpose). As tension grew, the waters began to become very rough. The Merpeople had weapons and items which contained power of their own, but compared to the Octopans they couldn't concoct Magic from within. Poseidon ordered his son to marry Arial's mother immediately. This would make the kingdom-rule official and in their favour, so the Merpeople would be in full power and control of the kingdom. After this went forward, all Octopans were banished from the kingdom completely and were labeled "Dark Rebels of the ocean". Ursula found solitude with the Eels and brought as many other Octopans with her as possible. As time went on the Octopan species scattered around the ocean becoming isolated and slowly extinct. Ursula was devastated by this fact as this was not what she wanted. The Eels didn't anticipate either that the Merpeople would react in such a hostile way towards the Octopans. Ursula kept practicing her magic from day to day and slowly started building a gothic inspired palace of her own, where she found great solitude. She would often hear stories of tritons offsprings, and his growing kingdom. She wondered if he ever thought of her, and wether or not he feared that one day... She may want to take revenge. |
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- In the beginning, all species lived in harmony together. Merpeople and Octopans alike. Obviously there were many other creatures in the mix, but merpeople and Octopans were the ruling species. Ursula and Triton met when they were kids. Triton being Poseidon's first son (Ruler of Merpeople) and Ursula being shinowa's first daughter. (Ruler of the Octopans). Triton and Ursula were the first Royal children in the kingdom. Ursula began developing feelings for triton very early on, and enjoyed spending time with him. They shared many things with each other, both their inner secrets and feelings. They could relate to each other due to their Royal stance and future responsibilities. To them, it was a kingdom they both new one day they would help each other rule. However as time went on, Triton began spending a lot more time with someone else. Someone he started feeling very strongly about. A high priestess in the kingdom and a desired mermaid, Arial's mother. Triton and Arial's mother began developing a relationship quite quickly, and had the kingdoms full support. This was very upsetting for Ursula, as she had fallen very much in love with Triton. Triton still included Ursula in his life as much as possible, and Arial's mother was very kind to her. Within the kingdom there was a known rule. The first child of royal blood who declared their love and marriage for another, would be the ruling species to take the thrown to the kingdom. Triton and Ursula always talked about their shared Union of the kingdom when they were younger, but never truly understood what it all meant. Triton never felt feelings towards Ursula nor did he pick up on Ursula's feelings towards him. When Ursula learnt of his growing relationship with Arial's mother, she maintained her composure as much as possible even though seeing them together killed her inside. She still had hope for a future with Triton not even thinking about the rule, or what could actually happen if Triton married Arial's mother. She just wanted him to love her. The more Ursula tried to win Tritons affection, the more she could see him falling deeper in love with Arials mother. Ursula was always rather introverted, very creative, and had a passion for expression and fighting for creatures to have the right to be who or whatever they wish to be. It was around this time that Ursula began turning inwards and leaving the palace walls at night and mixing with creatures of a completely different nature. The eels were creatures who would swim in the darkest part's of the ocean. They were long and snake-like, with different ideals and understandings. Ursula's image began to change and so did her personality, and unlike the Merpeople, the Octopans were unknowingly gifted. Octopans had their own inner powers. Many Octopans lived their lives unaware of this fact, which kept much of their potential suppressed. It was the eels who told Ursula about what she was and what she could do. They began to teach her how to manage each power and when she should use them. They asked Ursula questions about the kingdom, and why she would ever want to rule something so controlled by rules and conformity. They encouraged Ursula instead, to teach and inspire her OWN kind and perhaps begin a new way of life. Ursula went back to the kingdom and began sharing her experiences with the octopans. She started teaching them magic and told them what her new ancient companies had taught her. Word spread around the kingdom fast, and soon enough Merpeople were gathering around the Octopans in AWE of what they could do. Triton and Arial's mother were in the process of preparing their marriage and taking the thrown. Poseidon (tritons father) become aware of what the Octopans had been dwelling in. Poseidon was quick to tell his son that the Octopans had become disruptive and corrupt by dark magic from out of the kingdoms quarters orchestrated by Ursula. Triton tried to challenge his father by convincing him that the Octopans new-found powers, would only make the kingdom stronger as a WHOLE. But Poseidon wouldn't have it, and viewed their power as a threat. He quickly reminded Triton that the only reason Merpeople were seen in a higher light, was because of their elegant, graceful and naturally regal appearance. Octopans with power could completely over-throw the Merpeople and Poseidon feared that. Poseidon banned all Merpeople from communicating with any Octopan who practiced "foreign acts". Shinowa (Ursula's mother) become infuriated that this rule was suddenly put into play without any consultation with the Octopan species. A large confrontation began between both colonies causing a massive divide between the two species. Triton felt that he had no choice but to cut all communication off from Ursula (but at this point Ursula no longer cared. As she had found a much bigger purpose). As tension grew, the waters began to become very rough. The Merpeople had weapons and items which contained power of their own, but compared to the Octopans they couldn't concoct Magic from within. Poseidon ordered his son to marry Arial's mother immediately. This would make the kingdom-rule official and in their favour, so the Merpeople would be in full power and control of the kingdom. After this went forward, all Octopans were banished from the kingdom completely and were labeled "Dark Rebels of the ocean". Ursula found solitude with the Eels and brought as many other Octopans with her as possible. As time went on the Octopan species scattered around the ocean becoming isolated and slowly extinct. Ursula was devastated by this fact as this was not what she wanted. The Eels didn't anticipate either that the Merpeople would react in such a hostile way towards the Octopans. Ursula kept practicing her magic from day to day and slowly started building a gothic inspired palace of her own, where she found great solitude. She would often hear stories of tritons offsprings, and his growing kingdom. She wondered if he ever thought of her, and wether or not he feared that one day... She may want to take revenge.