Why So Much Bashing?

[fridamoonbeam]

Okay. This got me thinking, and well, I'm sure a lot of us here have noticed all the TLM bashing that goes on with people. Which mostly I say to each their own, but I really dislike when I try to make a reasonable debate (on anything mind you) and it's thrown into the dumpster. It's ignorance and people whho think they're right about everything that just always tick me off no matter the circumstance.

Anyway, what I notice most of is all the Ariel bashing, which honestly I find rather sexist. I mean, most people who bash her will love Beast, Prince Phillip and Naveen (or they tend too).

Now Beast (my favorite of the three I mentioned ^^) was going to let a woman freeze to death since he thought she was ugly, threw a man in the dungeon even after Maurice tried to plead with him, then held a girl prisoner, with plans to use her to get him out of the curse.

Phillip- He spent an afternoon in the forest with Aurora, and then decided he was going to blow off his father's wishes, and his country. That was such a dangerous thing to do, considering it could have started a war. Also, think of what time and effort people would try to place into him before he became king? Now, I'm not saying Eric wouldn't have chosen the peasant life to be with Ariel, but Eric would have *thought* about it, and wouldn't be so rebellious or disrespectful to Grim. Which granted I know Phillip was meant to be seen as purely noble, but it still bugs me xD

Naveen- Okay, he's self-centered and naive, and ends up making a deal with a bad guy to get what he wants (sound familiar? xD)

Ariel- When she made the deal with Ursula was when she was at a really tough emotional place after having her things destroyed. Yeah, she thought Eric was cute (who can blame her? ) But be honest, haven't we all gotten a little caught up staring at a hot guy (or girl if you will)? It doesn't make you a *bad* person, besides, as I say Ariel wouldn't have gone for him if he hid out like a wuss. He was in the thick of it like the other guys, also rescued Grim and Max. Then she spent the night beside him to make sure he was okay. Which is proven people who go through traumatic things together often form bonds. And at the end of the day she learns her lesson, and got a few kicks in her butt along the way (which she deserved )

Now the reason I listed this is because I think she gets a bad rap, when she did *nothing* worse than the first three I named. Again, I think it's mostly cause people are sexist

Eric, okay you had to know this was coming xD. What really bugs me is that people don't notice the hypnosis part of the film. So then they act like he's dumb and shallow, even some Disney books take the cheap route out and say he was hypnotized, which is so annoying since it's clear in the film Ursula used Ariel's voice to take him over (which in my personal opinion she used a "love potion" that would only work if you had something from from the other half of the pair ). Also, he gets viewed as a player, but c'mon. Boy was a spaz in the rowboat. He also had a brain in "Okay she's pretty, but what good qualities does she have?" Rather than "She's so beautiful I must marry her

I could probably go into more, but for now I'll stop xD.

Any thoughts?

[Zavi]

From what I've argued with people, I've found that they dislike Ariel for more "feministic" reasons. The "She did it for a man!" argument has been dropped many, many times.

Maybe this is me having a Mulan fan as a best friend, but most of the anti-Ariel arguments end up with our girl in comparison to Mulan. Mulan, who:

-Saves China, a completely noble cause
-Is devoted to her father and doesn't want to see him hurt, even if she defies him in the end
-Is the latest representative of the get-off-your-bum-and-fight princess (before Tiana, anyway)
-Defeats the villain for the PEOPLE, not for her "selfish" goals

Basically, Mulan helped impact the greater good while Ariel wanted to make things right for herself.

But Mulan wasn't exactly gearing to save China from the get-go. She just wanted her father to stay safe, and knowingly risked death and dishonor for her family to make her world right. Plus, it wasn't like Eric's kingdom was in crappy enough shape to need saving! What could Ariel do, groom the ponies?

Love TLM (You never would've guessed, would you?) and Mulan, but comparing the go-getter princesses just makes things go around in circles. XP It's very easy to paint another princess as "better" because of her impact in her film, but when you get down to it things can't be compared.

Also, it probably doesn't help that TLM is one of the more popular Disney movies overall. That alone warrants a lot of backlash. Would I complain about Twilight so much if there weren't so many fangirls who believed in the fandom? No. Sad though it is, excessive praise for something/someone tends to piss off those who don't see eye-to-eye.

[fridamoonbeam]

Oh yeah, I do love Mulan, but because I love one doesn't mean I can't like the other lolz

To me the argument about her "doing it all for a man" loses weight since it's made clear in the movie that she wanted to be human to begin with. While the romance is wonderful in it, it's not the only focus of the film. It's a great look at a real family imho. I mean one of the points was that sometimes you need to just go and become who they feel they need to be.

Oh, and please don't mention the "T" word to me xD

But I still think it's sexist that if you're a man who does dumb/selfish things, as long as you learn a lesson/change by the end, no one holds it against you

[Zavi]

Every time I have the boat scene used against me. "He's very handsome, isn't he?" Then I just rebut with POTW. No one believes me. XD They seem to agree that Eric wasn't the ONLY reason Ariel wanted to go to the human world, but they sure believe he was the main one.

I've had these arguments too many times to count. We're very defensive about our best girls. Give me a prince on a horse to a vampire in a Volvo any day. Really, is there any substitute?

[fridamoonbeam]

LOL! I think mainly what's annoying me is the gender thing. *sighs* Oh, I know. Some people you can't get to change their mind for anything. xD

A prince in a boat you mean

Anyway, who annoys me even though I love her is Belle. It's mostly the film makers fault though. In the movie they don't seem to make her wrong about anything. It's like she goes from great to better! When she's being unreasonable, no one calls her on it, or she just ends up being right, when I DON'T think that was the complete case. Again. I do love Belle, and think of her as the female Eric (though he's more awkward than she is xD) but she's also kind of a snob.

[Zavi]

Dec 30, 2009 23:47:29 GMT -5 fridamoonbeam said:

A prince in a boat you mean

Of course. (:

I don't recall anyone I know using the gender argument, but I totally see where you're coming from! I never would've noticed that. I actually didn't like Naveen at all when he was in his lazy bum phase--who is this jerk and why is he the spawn of Al and Eric? But towards the end he became one of my favorite princes.

It might be the focus of TLM, too. It wasn't as much about people changing as BatB was. Beast turned into Adam because his character changed, while Ariel changed into a human because her father had changed and knew she needed to go home, which *wasn't* in the ocean. The movies were about two different things, even if change happened in both of them.

Another Anti-Ariel argument I get a lot is that she didn't really do anything about defeating Ursula. Well, it's a little difficult to save anybody when you're trapped at the bottom of the ocean floor in a whirlpool, isn't it? And those who say "But Eric did all the work!" also believe him to be a pansy. XD These arguments just go roundandroundandround. Don't get me started on Eric vs. Shang, oh gawd.

[fridamoonbeam]

Yes, there are different circumstances in each film. Most people act like Ariel tried to destroy the ocean on purpose.

Maurice was very excepting of Belle and thought she was special. He wasn't trying to change her, even though depending on how it was characterized, it could have been interesting. Like if she kept reading, then she'd never really have any friends, or meet someone. Which modern people don't understand how important and practical marriage was back then.

So, yes, you're right, you can't compare them completely since it's different situations.

LOL, Yes, those arguments are annoying to me too xD. I mean SHE was the one who gather her friends to save him from marrying Ursula, and SHE was the one who saved him from getting blasted "Say good bye to your sweetheart..." Not to mention she saved him from drowning in the first place! Which was only the right thing to do, since it *would* her been wrong to let someone die cause dad said so . So at that point in the movie, it was only right that Eric would really prove his love and commitment to her.

Ahaha, yes. I like Shang more than I used to, mostly since he reminds me of my brother Ben xD. I personally see Eric and Shang getting along well (which I know isn't the point you're trying to make). Eric is very commited to the people around him, and his duties. No one ever said in the movie "That boy is so irrisponsible, he needs to shape up in order to be king!". I think Eric would also admire Shang's disipline and commitment. While they may not be best friends who get matching tattoos, I think they'd have a mutual n after respect and understanding. The only time I can not see them being okay with one another is the scene in Mulan where Shang leaves her behind, even after she saved them. Yeah, if Eric was there, he would not be quiet xD. Though why would he be in Ancient China in the first place? xD

I see a bigger difference between Shang and Phillip

Phillip was a tad flighty in SB. He knew he'd be abandoning the throne, but he didn't act like he cared much about everything that people invested in him to be king, or what bad foreign relations it could bring for him to go after Aurora. Shang on the other hand is very committed to his duties, and quite stubborn at that. Also, he had the opposite problem, which was he had a hard time even admitting he felt something for Mulan (granted she was in drag for most of the time he knew her, but you know what I mean) I think it would be beneficial for both, one can become more grounded, and the other could loosen up

As you can tell, I don't care for Phillip and think he's over-rated xD. I don't *hate* him since I can't bring myself to hate a Disney character and still think of myself as a sane person

[DanTheMan]

I'm sure a lot of us here have noticed all the TLM bashing that goes on with people.

I'll be honest, I haven't lol.. I guess I'm out of the loop.

[Zavi]

Dec 31, 2009 15:15:48 GMT -5 fridamoonbeam said:

As you can tell, I don't care for Phillip and think he's over-rated xD. I don't *hate* him since I can't bring myself to hate a Disney character and still think of myself as a sane person

Ohhh, I still have a vendetta against Marina Del Rey. But then again, I'm not completely sane. XD

Don't ever put opinionated Disney lovers in a room, especially if a) they're women, b) they've known each other long enough to rip apart each other's fandoms, and c) They're so hopelessly obsessed with their favorite characters that every day is a new opportunity to one-up each other. -holds up sword in triumph- Disney movie marathons around here are...interesting. Aladdin is the only Switzerland. That may be why you haven't heard much bashing, Dan. (:

I always end up getting the argument that Shang took out all his baddies with his own hands (or close to it) whereas Eric had to run them over with a ship, which apparently anybody can do. Well, I'd like to see Shang take out berserk!Ursula with his martial arts moves. I don't think that'd end very well.

Never had any villain arguments, though. Shan-Yu and Ursula are both equally creepy in their own ways.

It always comes back to the protagonists and the choices they make. Because it's true that Ariel and Eric know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about each other, even as the movie ends. That's not to say Ariel and Eric were jumping into a situation where they may be incompatible--they know they're a good match, but what more? Not much. Nothing of each other's histories, customs, etc. Ariel doesn't even know Eric's last name (Oh, dear. The Carrie Underwood song is now stuck in my head. XD). But the film wasn't ABOUT that. Ariel didn't BELONG somewhere, her father effectively forced her out, and she followed her heart and got where she belonged. -steps off soapbox-

Now "Last Name" won't get out of my head. ):

[fridamoonbeam]

Aladdin is Switzerland? That made me laugh pretty hard xD

Oh, god, do I know that's true. But yeah, I have no real way to explain the Eric and Shang deal. I mean, getting trown into a hurricane at the rate he was, more likely would have broken all the bones of a normal person. Not to mention, who on earth would have had the brains to think of stabbing her with a boat? Also, stirring a ship like that was a really hard skill to master back in those days. I'm not going to take away from Shang, since I do like him. But I think both guys were suited for the situations they were thrown into (Eric, litterally) Actually an advantage Eric has is that people would think of him as "nice" and not realize until it was too late what damage he could do xD

LOL, yes, I agree about them not really knowing each other that well. xD But in times of insanity is when you can really see what a person in made of, or get a sense of it. Also, what I hate about the movie is it makes it seem like they got married that day, but in truth it never specified WHEN they did, just that it did take place. Could have been that day, a month, a year

[Coral]

I've never been involved in one of these in person, but I've seen plenty online. And they really don't make any sense or hold water at all. Without Ariel's success, none of the other "better" princesses would exist in the first place. She paved the way for all the others.

[vidia]

i don't have much time for posting out an elaborate evaluation XD all i gotta say isss
Snow White's prince kinda
bothers me
with his lipstick.

'__'

XD

[fridamoonbeam]

Jan 3, 2010 23:14:49 GMT -5 Coral said:

I've never been involved in one of these in person, but I've seen plenty online. And they really don't make any sense or hold water at all. Without Ariel's success, none of the other "better" princesses would exist in the first place. She paved the way for all the others.

Well, the honest answer is that people are for the most part closed minded, and don't bother to listen to other people's opinions when they clame they do

LOL, Aww Vi, I'm okay with the Prince from Snow White, personally xD. The only one I don't like is Phillip.

[Zavi]

Eric and Adam are my two best Disney men. Phillip I'm pretty indifferent about, as with Snow White's prince. Prince Charming is the one I'm not too fond of, though with that voice in the sequels... (:

If I were Eric and had just woken up from passing out from exhaustion, I really wouldn't want to get married the same day. I'd be sore as heck--delighted, but ready to go home an go to bed. XD I think they'd wait a month at the very least, more likely longer than six months.Marrying Ariel with the level of human knowledge she had at the end of the film seems like a veryveryeryveryverrrry bad idea. But that's for another thread.

And, y'know, Ariel kind of followed Disney logic a lot more than the other girls she's always compared against. I mean, Eric and Ariel didn't ever fight in TLM while you get people like Tiana and Mulan whose relationships evolved more realistically. But at the time, there hadn't even been any proactive princesses period (alliteration unintended), so she's a step in the right direction anyway.

[Coral]

I do like Phillip. Mostly because he loves horses, like me. And he's not afraid to carry on a conversation with an animal.

Snow White's prince is a reflection of the times he was created in. Silent movies had their own makeup style and when Snow White was being drawn the studios were still figuring out how to transition the makeup as the film technology improved.

[fridamoonbeam]

Yeah, as much as people don't want to admit it, it all was a step in the right direction. I'll go ahead and bring up Aurora for example; she never questioned her "aunts" really on why she could never leave the forest, Which true, it's cool she is respectful to them, but I also don't see her as being very intelligent, or strong for just excepting it either. Plus, she pretty much fell in love with Phillip after sharing a dance with him, and didn't do anything but cry after that (again, not such a horrible thing)

But basically my point is Ariel was the first princess with a pair, and Eric was the first prince with a brain

[Coral]

That's very true, Jodi! Eric was the first prince with a brain and he didn't need the help of fairies to defeat the evil witch.

[Zavi]

Tell that to everyone I've ever talked to in real life! Well, only those obsessed enough to have intelligent conversations about Disney. (:

I actually love Samson 110% more than Phillip. He has a wonderful personality and I always loved how Eric's horse had the same coat and superjumping abilities. And that has nothing to do with how much I love horses. Nothing at all. -shifty eyes-

[vidia]

XD I'M OKAY WITH SNOW'S PRINCE, i just sometimes think his lips look weird. but he's hardly in the film at all. it's just sometimes i see graphics of him and well, whattaya know, couples DO start to look alike cough cough lips as red as blood. but Coral makes sense about tha makeup XD I'M JUST CHILDISH AND I GIGGLE AT SILLY THINGS LIKE THAT!

yup yup i agree with Jodi on Ariel and Eric [basically everything she said XD]

i don't find too much of a problem with the early Disney princesses cuz yanno, they were early. XD princesses seemed to start gaining smarts as the years went on, Ariel, Belle, Jasmine...to Tiana, you know how it goes. Disney Girls too like Mulan [yeah yeah she's an OFFICIAL princess yet still not EXACTLY a princess XD], Meg, Jane etc. i'm sure somewhere on deviantArt there's a parody with Belle, Jas, Mulan etc. making fun of Cindy, Snow, Aurora etc. for falling in love with men off the bat.

OH YES and random [sorry, dunno if this was posted before BUT!]
what are your feelings about RAPUNZEL being added to the princess line?!
my personal opinion is HUHHH cuz she's CGI and totally...literally, stands out from the rest XD. mind as well have added Giselle.

sorry if this is a load of rambling! XD I'M IN A RUSH AGAIN D=!

[Coral]

If they stay true to the original story (as true as Disney can) I'll be fine with it. But if they skewer it and take away the sad beauty of it I'll be very upset. She does fall in love with a prince, just like Belle.