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Post by Coral on Apr 26, 2009 19:10:15 GMT -5
If she was strictly a human, scuba diving would be way up on the list.
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Post by DanTheMan on Apr 26, 2009 22:31:12 GMT -5
It's a good thing they're anonymous  lol.. Anyway, first off, since he/she already said they didn't like the movie (which is moronic to begin with), It's pretty much a given that they don't like Ariel. However, I fail to see how she is selfish. If you look up the word 'selfish' in any dictionary, you can't show me one thing that she has done that fits that definition. And self-centered? Honesty, I think that person is just being a troll, because they don't even know the actual definitions of the words they're using. It's sad. |
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Post by WickedElphie on Apr 26, 2009 23:21:02 GMT -5
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and say that Ariel can occasionally be selfish and self centered. Just to be clear, she's far and away my favorite Disney heroine and one of my all time favorite female characters period, but she's not perfect.
It's not so much that she purposefully disdains the feelings of others as she doesn't always stop to think that her actions could affect someone else. Case in point her excursions to the surface. It probably never occurred to her that if she were seen/caught by humans it could effectively "out" the merpeople as definitely existing. Or her deal with Ursula. She gets caught up in the moment and her own feelings, and doesn't stop to look at the big picture. That said, Ariel's also insanely brave, loyal, kind-hearted, and willing to fight for what she believes in.
In all honesty the fact that Ariel *has* flaws, to me, makes her a much more interesting and relatable character. I like my heroes and heroines imperfect, thank you very much.
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Post by fridamoonbeam on Apr 26, 2009 23:36:27 GMT -5
In all honesty the fact that Ariel *has* flaws, to me, makes her a much more interesting and relatable character. I like my heroes and heroines imperfect, thank you very much. AMEN! Yeah, I think that's a great part of her is that she has different layers to her, great you see her evolve in the movie. (Again I love Belle) But Belle went from great to amazing in BatB. The film makers didn't do her justice never acting like she was wrong about anything in the movie, when I think she was. Example: When she walking was through town and the baker asks her about her day, she replies bursting into talking about the book she was reading, when she SHOULD have said, "I finished a wonderful story and now I'm off to get another. How's your morning?" (Ariel would have done that  ) -- I thought Belle was being rude when she did that, but the movie acts like everyone in the town is too stupid to notice how awesome Belle is. I don't like how she handled Gaston. She never gave him any clue that she wasn't interested. She just always used her father as an excuse as to why she couldn't do something. And the proposal scene makes me cringe. "What a pleasent surprise." "What would you know about my dreams?" "Dogs" "I'm speakless." -- All of those things imho would encourage a person to go on. Anyway, this isn't a Belle thread, but the reason I bring it up is since she's the one that people who bash Ariel think is the bread and butter of Disney girls. Bleh. LOL |
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Post by Zavi on Apr 27, 2009 9:35:09 GMT -5
-applause- Yay, well-rounded characters!
I think part of the selfishness is typical teenage behavior, too. Most teens, no matter where their values lie, make those kinds of decisions sometimes. You don't gain full potential to judge consequences until well into your 20s (biologically speaking). That being said, the trait's pronounced in Ariel and it can't all be attributed to Disney logic/her age.
Getting back to the topic of well-rounded characters, this topic has been swimming around in my mind for a while.
...no pun intended.
Which of Ariel's flaws are mostly fatal? I was agonizing over this before I drafted the fic when I was getting to know each character. Eric has his over-thinking which can get him by in a few instances, but it's mostly detrimental. Most of Ariel's traits seem like they're beneficial except in certain circumstances. -headdesk-
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Post by WickedElphie on Apr 27, 2009 10:23:05 GMT -5
I think Ariel's impulsiveness/problem seeing beyond the moment/"certain disregard for the rules" as Dumbledore would say, could be considered her fatal flaws. They've certainly gotten her in sticky situations before. Even her willingness to befriend absolutely anyone/thing has occasionally backfired.
1) Spot. It turned out okay but he ended up collapsing a room full of fish and merpeople. Triton even points out that someone could have been killed.
2) Stormy. Ariel herself was badly hurt.
3) Freeing the Evil Manta. Nuff said.
3) Eelectric City. Ditto.
I think a skilled manipulator such could goad her into making a bad decision by playing on her rebelliousness and/or her sympathy for outcasts. Even Pearl manages to get her to play along despite not exactly being subtle.
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Post by Coral on Apr 27, 2009 12:52:16 GMT -5
Her impulsiveness could definitely be a fatal flaw. Things like that do get people killed, or at the very least seriously injured.
That's also a big part of why she and Eric are such a good match. They balance each other. His over-thinking holds her back when necessary, and her impulsiveness pulls him out when he shouldn't hold back.
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Post by Zavi on Apr 27, 2009 14:35:49 GMT -5
That's what I was thinking, although she's proven that she can get out of pretty much every sticky situation. Not only does she un-pickle herself in the end (with help or not), she comes out ready for another adventure. I think she's in for one big hit in the face when her plans really go awry.
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Post by WickedElphie on Apr 27, 2009 15:52:57 GMT -5
Agreed. IMO I think the close call with Ursula definitely gave her some pause given that not only was she almost killed, but her Dad was turned into a Polyp, and Eric almost died saving her.
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Post by fathomsbelow on Apr 27, 2009 17:24:28 GMT -5
I agree that Ariel can be pretty impulsive. Her concern for other people can be used to others' advantages. I think one of her strengths is that she's very resourceful, but if it weren't for Eric( or Sora if you want to count Kingdom Hearts ), she wouldn't have survived that battle with Ursula. |
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Post by DanTheMan on May 4, 2009 0:25:39 GMT -5
I would more so say that it's Ariel not thinking clearly, rather than her being 'selfish', because that is not her intention.
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Post by WickedElphie on May 4, 2009 7:39:25 GMT -5
I don't think very many people set out to act selfishly, but that doesn't mean they don't. Ariel's not a spoiled brat by any means, but she clearly has moments where she puts what she wants ahead of everything else. And that's not necessarily always a bad thing either.
A certain amount of selfishness is healthy and normal, especially in a teenager. It's okay to want what you want to come first sometimes, as long as it doesn't get out of control.
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Post by zoccarris on May 12, 2009 15:31:24 GMT -5
Ariel is a relatively complex character for a Disney princess in that she's certainly not shown to always do the best (or the right) thing. I appreciate that, although she's never been one of my favorite characters from the movie. (You all should take that with a grain of salt, seeing that part of my focus in looking at these characters is to find their flaws).
And because of that, I can definitely see the anti-Ariel argument. But she never irked me, so I never really thought it was a particularly great point. When it comes to Ariel, I have a pretty neutral feeling overall. She's still amongst the better princesses, though she doesn't seem to think things through very often.
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Post by DanTheMan on May 18, 2009 23:30:35 GMT -5
I don't think very many people set out to act selfishly, but that doesn't mean they don't. Ariel's not a spoiled brat by any means, but she clearly has moments where she puts what she wants ahead of everything else. And that's not necessarily always a bad thing either. A certain amount of selfishness is healthy and normal, especially in a teenager. It's okay to want what you want to come first sometimes, as long as it doesn't get out of control. Then I guess you might want to call it 'unitentional-selfishness', because being selfish wasn't on her mind at all. I can't see any Anti-Ariel argument, because there's clearly nothing really, terribly wrong about her. |
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Post by Zavi on May 19, 2009 13:59:48 GMT -5
I can't see any Anti-Ariel argument, because there's clearly nothing really, terribly wrong about her. Ohhh, you haven't met my Girl Scout troop. XD I've debated this many, many times...last weekend, in fact. Basically the main argument is that her whole life revolved around her stalk-ee: Eric. The way I see it is if he never existed, when her father destroyed everything she would have traded her voice to Ursula and went on land anyway. She wanted to be part of THAT world before she became part of his world. As for the whole "She stalked Eric!" argument, it's Disney logic. I wouldn't want some guy kissing my dead body or singing to me randomly in the woods, either. But that's what suspension of disbelief is for. Edit: I've been thinking about this for a while now. It's not a 100% Ariel question, but I think it fits in this thread. How limited is Ariel in transforming from a human to a mermaid and vice versa? I've always thought it weakened the point of the ending if she could just transform freely, or even frequently. Or moderately. However, it's never explicitly stated what the limits of Triton's magic are. In most fiction magic has rules and limits, but we never hear about that with Triton. I don't think it needed to be in the film, but it's something to ponder. |
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Post by WickedElphie on May 25, 2009 16:53:14 GMT -5
IMO The magic used to change Ariel is very powerful and takes a lot of energy/ trident juice/ whatever and as such can't be used too frequently. I don't think she visits Atlantica very often. Maybe once or twice year, if that, and usually those trips are for very big occasions.
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Post by Coral on May 25, 2009 18:51:21 GMT -5
I think I'm with Jess. It has to have a limit of some sort or some of the specialness about it is lost.
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Post by DanTheMan on May 25, 2009 22:30:03 GMT -5
I don't think it has limitations. I mean, it's Tritons' Trident for gods sake lol... If it had limitations, he wouldn't be as powerful.
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Post by fridamoonbeam on May 26, 2009 0:32:25 GMT -5
I have to agree with Dan on this, since if it had those kind of limitations then I don't think Ursula would find it as appealing. Not that it's the end all, be all, since there were things he couldn't do; like free Ariel from the contract. But Ursula turned herself into a huge monster and began blasting away. It's a great topic to be discused that's for sure.  |
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Post by Zavi on Jun 11, 2009 15:52:09 GMT -5
Yep, it is. I do love debates! I personally think Ursula would be attracted to a tool with limits as long as it was powerful, which it was. -shrug- I love hearing every opinion, of course.
While we're on the subject of Triton, here's another topic: Ariel's relationship with her father. Or just her standing with the "non-human-obsessed" merfolk and even the humans.
We all know Ariel was in some way ostracized from mer-society for her love of humans. I wouldn't say she was a total outcast, but she was the weird one along with being the incurable optimist. How much of that persists after the transformation? How is she accepted after this decision? Eric, of course, loves Ariel for exactly who she is, but what about everyone else? Triton? The merfolk? The humans?
Triton changed dramatically come the end of TLM, but if he's been living with hatred for humans since Athena's death--or even prior to it--would it be that easy to abandon all of it? He must be terribly scared for his daughter, as any father would. I dunno if he'd revert to the man he was pre-TLM, but surely he FEELS all these things.
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lol..
) -- I thought Belle was being rude when she did that, but the movie acts like everyone in the town is too stupid to notice how awesome Belle is.
